Law Vise

[mvalbano 0]

Hi All,

 

After reading the previous locked thread I felt compelled to add to the conversation from a Law vise owner, vise collector and someone that knows a little bit of the background on this Virtual Nymph copy.

 

Lawrie Waldron did not "retire" but just took a break making the vises full time to focus on other projects, I don't think even he knew how crazy the second hand market would get after he stopped making them full time in 2010. I do not believe he ever patented the design so over the last few years the CAE vise came out and now the Virtual Nymph vise. I can tell you first hand that Lawrie is not happy that these vises copied his design and since its technically legal he believes it's morally and ethically wrong and their is obviously merit to that since he designed the vise with Hans W. back in 1989. The CAE borrowed heavy on the design but absolutely lacked the finish and quality the LAW had, their were also issues with the jaws chipping originally and I don't know if that has been ironed out since it has been out several years. For those unaware Virtual Nymph makes great tying material for caddis pupa and nymphs. Their nymph skin is an awesome material for tying realistic hydros. Their are bunch of LAWs in the states but its really all over the place in Europe and im guess the owner Dale is trying to capitalize on the fact that their is no patent on the design and the demand for second hand LAWs are through the roof what bothers me is that it is an exact replica without any credit to Lawrie. If you look on EBay as of writing this, their is a LAW for the buy it now price of $4400 and a separate listing for just the pedestal base for almost $2k which is insane. The LAW originally was only around $500 but a weak dollar and strong British pound converted that price to around $800-$900. A few years ago you can get one second hand for $1200-$1500 and then God knows how the prices got to be as high now.

 

To the point on why the LAW is so good and people are willing to spend so much on it and copy it. Listen, at the end of the day it's a vise and it holds a hook but the design is really stuning and it can really hold a size 10\0 to 32 on the same jaws with just one adjustment and the hook will not move. Also, the way the jaws are designed you have a lot of access to the rear of the hook as well as a place to put your non bobbin hand. It's just a really simple, beautiful design. Is it worth the cost? Well, that's up to the person purchasing it. Is a new Sage X rod worth $900? Is the new Loomis rod worth over a $1000? At the end of the day it is to me because I look at these vises as not only tools for what I love to do, but as sculpture and that's why I started collecting them as I admire the craftmenship and engineering Lawrence Waldron put into the LAW vise and other vise makers put into their vises. As a side note if you can find a LAW and want it go get it but if you are in the market for a really good vise my suggestions are the Jvice, Jay Smit the owner and maker of the Jvice is a friend and his vice is probably the best out their now in my opinion. It holds every size hook and the goose neck design gives you the most access to the rear of the hook then any vise, even the LAW. The renzetti presentation 4000 is a also a favorite especially for my streamers and the master is great too but sometimes I prefer the 4000. The Stonfo transformer is new and pretty cool and innovative but one can argue they take a lot of design elements from the Master. Happy New Year everyone!

 

PS Doug Stout your an amazing engineer, love your work!

 

Mike

[Bimini15 0]

Thanks for this. It clarifies the issues I had with the original thread.

It is sad that we now live in a world where many people think it is ok to do anything that is technically legal, no matter how unethical or immoral it may be.

[SILKHDH 0]

My main point when I posted was the lies the copy cats put on their sites. Where THEY claim the design.

CAE claims to have spent many hours of research, and the Nymph one is saying "made by Ferrari formula one engineers". No reference to Lawrence at all. Which is not cool. Their grubbing the credit. Yea, I copied one too. BUT I ASKED LAWRENCE'S PERMISSION TO SELL AND PROFIT FROM IT. He said NO. SO I didn't. Also, any where you see my vise, I always give the main design credit to Lawrence Waldon. That's the right thing to do. Nothing wrong with copying. To mimic is the greatest form of flattery. But to profit from it is where the line was crossed. Thank you Mike for also repeating the "Waldron not retired". Not many know the TRUTH.

 

P.S. Mike, Thanks for the compliment, have you seen the vises I made at FrankenFly.com? Go there and search DOUG STOUT, you'll dig em. If you do, be sure to read the first couple sentences where I ALWAYS give credit to the MAIN DESIGNER. LIKE THESE OTHER JERKS SHOULD. LOL. You obviously know your vises bro.

[mvalbano 0]

Hey Doug, yes I saw them way back a few years ago when they were first posted, amazing vises! My favorite was the copy of the LAW streamside vise, adding a the tools inside the box was awesome. Yea, I noticed you did the right thing and you give credit to the original designer. Have a good new year!

 

Mike

[Crackaig 0]

This is leaving me in a very difficult position. I own, and use, a LAW. I know Lawrence, and think he is due the highest respect for his work. I have known Steve Thornton and Dale Rushby for longer than I care to remember. Steve set up Virtual Nymph, and sold the tying material side to Dale a good few years ago. I often tie on Dale's stands at shows. About 2 years ago Dale started telling me that Steve had designed a vice that was "Better than the LAW" and that Steve had an engineer, who usually made parts for the Ferrari FI cars, lined up to make it. I wanted to see it. You can imagine I would be keen on that. Remember at that time I had not seen the vice, I only had Dale's word to go on. In October I was tying on the Virtual Nymph stand when the new vice made it's first public appearance. Dale expected me to tie on the new vice. I jokingly said, "If you give me one to tie on you aint gettin it back!"

 

Then I saw it. It is not quite an exact copy of the LAW. However the differences are mostly cosmetic. The functional differences are... Well they strike me as solutions looking for a problem. It tilts slightly further up and down than the original LAW. There are differences in the materials used as well. I will comment on that in a moment. I was not impressed that they had done this. I did not tie on it. Dale insists that the jaws on the LAW vice are, themselves, copies of an earlier design. I do not know the validity of this.

 

To me good engineering design includes economy. For example, if I wanted to make a mallet that deformed when I hit a workpiece, rather than damage the workpiece I would choose something soft, perhaps lead. I would never consider using, the at least equally soft metal, gold. It has all the right properties to do the job, so why not? Well I'm sure you know the answer. Now in the 11 to 12 years I have been using my LAW Bench Vice the jaws show no signs of wear. That says to me that the jaws are made of a steel that is more than up to the tasks asked of it in fly tying. Making the jaws out of a higher grade of steel seems to me like making your mallet out of gold. Likewise the Delrin bearings in my LAW have never needed any attention. Why make the bearings on this new VN vice out of a higher grade material? What they have done in using the materials they have does not have any benefit to your tying, it only serves to increase the cost. Part of the beauty of Lawrence's vice is that he could produce it at the cost he did.

 

There is one further thing that impacts on me in all this. A good friend of mine was waiting for his LAW vice from Lawrence, when Lawrence suddenly announced he was stopping making them. My friend was eager to get his vice, and very disappointed not to. Then Lawrence came out of his "retirement" to make 6 more vices. These were sold off and nothing was said to my friend. He is now rather angry about this, and I can understand why. Having been promised a vice he hasn't received, then seeing them made to cash in on a higher price, would leave a sour taste.

 

This leaves me in a quandary. I have no wish to fall out with any of these people. For now I am maintaining my relationship with Virtual Nymph and will continue to use and recommend their materials. However I will not be using this new vice, or promoting it at all. What he has done is not illegal, so I feel I do not need to distance myself. I am not happy that they have done this, and want no part of it.

My friend who was waiting for his LAW is considering buying one of these vices, and I can't blame him. He hasn't been treated well, so going elsewhere for a very similar product seems eminently reasonable.

All in all no one comes out of this whole episode well. That is where I stand, in the middle of all this trying to steer a clear path through it. Meanwhile I have my own vice design sketched out. It is difficult to avoid resemblances to what has gone before. There are only so many ways to hold a hook well. What I will say though is it is not a direct copy of anything I have seen before.

 

Cheers,

C.

[Poopdeck 0]

I know when I'm looking for a hook holder I want a Ferrari engineers name attached to it. Who knew there is all this drama associated with hook holders.

[mikechell 0]

This is leaving me in a very difficult position. (1)

 

There are only so many ways to hold a hook well. What I will say though is it is not a direct copy of anything I have seen before. (2)

 

Cheers,

C.

(1) Baloney, C. As with MOST "difficult" situations, it's more in your mind than actuality.

Stay out of the argumentative side. You last statement is the reality of this whole "problem".

 

(2) As with your own design, there are only so many ways to make a fly tying vise. Since you have no proof that anyone actually copied anyone else's vise ... don't pick a side. If they want to argue, or sue, or whatever, it is NOT your problem. Just stand aside and maintain an indifference to it. Just like politics and religion ... just refuse to take sides.

[josephcsylvia 0]

My opinion since I know thats what everyone was waiting for infringements are the problem of the two people involved and thier attourneys. In all reality if the vice holds a hook without moving and is a true rotary, and allows for attachments like gallows and profile plates then it really doesnt get any better, only prettier and that value is like art, determined by the buyer.

 

I dont care if NASA designed the vice if it does the same thing my Peak does

[tctrout 0]

Hi All,

 

After reading the previous locked thread I felt compelled to add to the conversation from a Law vise owner, vise collector and someone that knows a little bit of the background on this Virtual Nymph copy.

 

Lawrie Waldron did not "retire" but just took a break making the vises full time to focus on other projects, I don't think even he knew how crazy the second hand market would get after he stopped making them full time in 2010. I do not believe he ever patented the design so over the last few years the CAE vise came out and now the Virtual Nymph vise. I can tell you first hand that Lawrie is not happy that these vises copied his design and since its technically legal he believes it's morally and ethically wrong and their is obviously merit to that since he designed the vise with Hans W. back in 1989. The CAE borrowed heavy on the design but absolutely lacked the finish and quality the LAW had, their were also issues with the jaws chipping originally and I don't know if that has been ironed out since it has been out several years. For those unaware Virtual Nymph makes great tying material for caddis pupa and nymphs. Their nymph skin is an awesome material for tying realistic hydros. Their are bunch of LAWs in the states but its really all over the place in Europe and im guess the owner Dale is trying to capitalize on the fact that their is no patent on the design and the demand for second hand LAWs are through the roof what bothers me is that it is an exact replica without any credit to Lawrie. If you look on EBay as of writing this, their is a LAW for the buy it now price of $4400 and a separate listing for just the pedestal base for almost $2k which is insane. The LAW originally was only around $500 but a weak dollar and strong British pound converted that price to around $800-$900. A few years ago you can get one second hand for $1200-$1500 and then God knows how the prices got to be as high now.

 

To the point on why the LAW is so good and people are willing to spend so much on it and copy it. Listen, at the end of the day it's a vise and it holds a hook but the design is really stuning and it can really hold a size 10\0 to 32 on the same jaws with just one adjustment and the hook will not move. Also, the way the jaws are designed you have a lot of access to the rear of the hook as well as a place to put your non bobbin hand. It's just a really simple, beautiful design. Is it worth the cost? Well, that's up to the person purchasing it. Is a new Sage X rod worth $900? Is the new Loomis rod worth over a $1000? At the end of the day it is to me because I look at these vises as not only tools for what I love to do, but as sculpture and that's why I started collecting them as I admire the craftmenship and engineering Lawrence Waldron put into the LAW vise and other vise makers put into their vises. As a side note if you can find a LAW and want it go get it but if you are in the market for a really good vise my suggestions are the Jvice, Jay Smit the owner and maker of the Jvice is a friend and his vice is probably the best out their now in my opinion. It holds every size hook and the goose neck design gives you the most access to the rear of the hook then any vise, even the LAW. The renzetti presentation 4000 is a also a favorite especially for my streamers and the master is great too but sometimes I prefer the 4000. The Stonfo transformer is new and pretty cool and innovative but one can argue they take a lot of design elements from the Master. Happy New Year everyone!

 

PS Doug Stout your an amazing engineer, love your work!

 

Mike

 

Thanks for the clarification, Mike, as many of the stories I've heard over the years were simply stories. Keep up the great work with those streamers you're tying!

 

Tim

[jmdailey 0]

Pretty much agree with all this.

Had a LAW for years till I got a stupid offer that I couldn't turn down. Great vise.

Still use a Regal. Stainless and Midge heads. Another great vise. Also use a Renzetti 3000. Nice for small hooks.

LAW still the best / but hard to keep with the demand.

Looks like HHM might be coming out with a LAW type jaw. Only thing similar is the jaws.

VN vise / looks like an option if you can get one. High price / but?

Personally can do everything I do on the Regal.

jmd

[jmdailey 0]

Added note -

If this is an issue for Waldron? He could start making them again. I would think at a higher price. Which I heard he has done / after retirement. But it would take care of the problem / if there is actually one.

jmd

[McFlyLures 0]

Thanks for this. It clarifies the issues I had with the original thread.

It is sad that we now live in a world where many people think it is ok to do anything that is technically legal, no matter how unethical or immoral it may be.

A direct copy is immoral, but so is the ridiculous cost of the laws now... no way I could ever afford one. Even though it's not his fault that his vices rose so much, how about him working with a manufacturer to get some kick back for them using his design? Something to drop those prices. Heck, make it $800-1000, many will be sold. Even if it's not exactly the original. The fact that he signed off on it I think would make people trust it more than a direct copy without his permission. He can focus on something else, and we can still get a great vice at a somewhat reasonable price...

[petelangevin 0]

I remember seeing them advertised in fly tyer and a couple of other magazines starting around 475 gbp which was about 600-700 usd then. Considering the amount of work Mr Waldron put into them you could expect 1500$ as a starting point today for new ones. Perhaps more, but i could never see myself paying that. I am very interested in the hmh though.

[JayWirth 0]

This type of thing - copying another's creation because there was no patent - is rampant in the fishing industries. I myself continue making a jig designed by my father, but since his passing (14 years ago) has been copied by two different companies. Its hurtful to myself and my family legacy bit Its not illegal.