Gene L 0 Report post Posted August 21, 2023 How strictly do you follow the traditional pattern? If you tie, say, an Adams, you strictly follow the pattern in the pattern book? Or are you allowed to make substitutions? And if you do, is it no longer an Adams? I'm happy to get the basic components so I substitute and do so in a carefree manner. As a result, it ain't pretty. It may not even be an Adams. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cphubert 0 Report post Posted August 21, 2023 If I am tying for someone other than me, I follow a pattern for consistency. For myself then subs are fine, and I would consider it a variant. If it fishes well, I might add it to my pattern list I have a large cigar box of patterns tied with subs and different styles for experimentation, many never work out to my liking and may eventually see the razor on a cold night with little better to do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
niveker 0 Report post Posted August 21, 2023 Its my opinion that most pattern recipes are merely guidelines, and the degree of deviation from the original recipe makes it a variant. Finding and using substitutions are part of the fun for me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DFoster 0 Report post Posted August 21, 2023 40 minutes ago, niveker said: Its my opinion that most pattern recipes are merely guidelines, and the degree of deviation from the original recipe makes it a variant. Finding and using substitutions are part of the fun for me. My opinion as well- As I don't always have chin hair from a male sasquatch available, I have to make do with angora- The fish don't seem to notice my substitutions and from a practice standpoint catching fish is the reason to tie flies. Substitutions make the fly a variant but the point at which an Adams is no longer an Adams is really subjective. I suppose if you can look at a fly and recognize that it was based on an Adams you should call it an "Adams variant"? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flytire 0 Report post Posted August 21, 2023 i follow book recipes for presentations on forums to show how the originator intended their fly to be tied (to the best of my ability) if i dont have a particular material that i could substitute, i wont tie the fly until i do for my fishing flies that i dont present of forums i will substitute materials here is an example from the internet of what the tyer claims to be an "Adams Parachute" here is an example from the internet of a traditional "Adams Parachute" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flytire 0 Report post Posted August 21, 2023 1 hour ago, DFoster said: My opinion as well- As I don't always have chin hair from a male sasquatch available, I have to make do with angora- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sandan 0 Report post Posted August 21, 2023 Depends. As Flytire said, presentation flies are tied "by the book". I find that a lot of times the by the book pattern gives me a jumping off point to modify for my own particular fishing situation(s). For instance, a light Cahill can be a fine PMD or PED imitation. In my neck of the woods PMDs have a much lighter wing than lemon wood duck and they also have a pinkish tinge to the abdomen/thorax. I'll use either light dun hackle tips or even a light dun McFlylon for wings and mix PMD/Hendrickson pink superfine if I'm going to dub the abdomen/thorax. Sometimes I'll use a PMD dyed stripped peacock herl or a PMD quill for the abdomen and the mixed dubbing for the thorax. Those changes make a fly that isn't a light Cahill any more. But, it's based on the lt. Cahill. I wouldn't necessarily call it a lt. Cahill variant, maybe a quill body PMD. On the other hand if I stuck to the original recipe and substituted the light ginger tail tail for lt. dun or PMD fibbets or lt. pardo CDL then I'd call it a lt. Cahill variant. Where does variant and new and different diverge? That's the 64,000 dollar question we each have our own answer to. IMHO. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RickZieger 0 Report post Posted August 21, 2023 I substitute a lot of materials. For many patterns the number of materials was much more limited than it is now. Now we have a great variety of things that we can use. How many other folks use ice dubbing, instead of the original dubbing to tie flies, one example. These are variants, but they work. I let the fish decide. Rick Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mvendon 0 Report post Posted August 21, 2023 It's funny that you chose an Adams as an example for variation. According to an old March 2005 issue of Fly Rod and Reel magazine, there are no less than 4,095 Adams dun variations, not counting hook sizes, parachutes or the female version. That article was written by A.K. Best 😉 Regards, Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flytire 0 Report post Posted August 22, 2023 can you just imagine how many more variations have been added since 2005 to the 4095? 😁😁 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SilverCreek 0 Report post Posted August 22, 2023 On 8/20/2023 at 10:06 PM, Gene L said: How strictly do you follow the traditional pattern? If you tie, say, an Adams, you strictly follow the pattern in the pattern book? Or are you allowed to make substitutions? And if you do, is it no longer an Adams? I'm happy to get the basic components so I substitute and do so in a carefree manner. As a result, it ain't pretty. It may not even be an Adams. An Adams is a specific pattern tied with specific materials. There are variants like a Parachute Adams or a Grizzly Adams but they are not the original Adams. In fact, the original pattern may no longer be the most popular. In the case of the Adams Dry Fly, the Parachute Adams is much more popular and is the most popular dry fly sold in the USA and in the world. https://www.google.com/search?q=most+popular+dry+fly+in+the+usa&sca_esv=559073772&sxsrf=AB5stBhL7HPDzXrwR9Ko-vLuWjc_Ur7WGg%3A1692709923995&source=hp&ei=I7TkZJmsOuKpptQPg-OWqAg&iflsig=AD69kcEAAAAAZOTCMzWN__cj1rocTcTwtqpJgCUBM6HT&oq=most+popular+dry+dly+in+the&gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6GgIYAyIbbW9zdCBwb3B1bGFyIGRyeSBkbHkgaW4gdGhlKgIIAjIHECEYoAEYCjIHECEYoAEYCjIKECEYoAEYChiLAzIKECEYoAEYChiLAzIHECEYqwIYCjIKECEYFhgeGB0YCkiQe1DqBFjRYnAGeACQAQCYAa8BoAGJHKoBBTEzLjE5uAEByAEA-AEBqAIKwgIHEC4Y6gIYJ8ICBxAjGOoCGCfCAgcQIxiKBRgnwgIEECMYJ8ICERAuGIAEGLEDGIMBGMcBGNEDwgILEAAYgAQYsQMYgwHCAgUQLhiABMICCBAAGIAEGLEDwgIFEAAYgATCAgcQLhiKBRgnwgIIEC4YgAQYsQPCAgsQLhiABBjHARivAcICCxAuGIAEGMcBGNEDwgILEC4YgAQYsQMY1ALCAgsQABiKBRixAxiDAcICBRAhGKsCwgIIECEYFhgeGB3CAgUQIRigAcICBxAAGA0YgATCAgYQABgWGB7CAggQABiKBRiGA8ICCBAAGKIEGIsDwgILEAAYiQUYogQYiwPCAggQIRirAhiLAw&sclient=gws-wiz https://www.panfishonthefly.com/blog/2018/4/18/the-most-popular-dry-fly-in-the-world Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gene L 0 Report post Posted August 23, 2023 I guess the next question is ;Who wrote the book? Or, in other words, to whom do we bestow the final word on the Adams? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
niveker 0 Report post Posted August 23, 2023 9 hours ago, Gene L said: to whom do we bestow the final word on the Adams? Len Halladay, it's creator Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flytire 0 Report post Posted August 23, 2023 ^what he said^ Adams Hook - Dry fly Thread - Black Tail - Golden pheasant tippet fibers Body - Gray wool Wings - Grizzly hen Hackle - Brown and grizzly I tied this replica using original recipe Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flytire 0 Report post Posted August 23, 2023 Len halladays story Part 1 https://youtu.be/HNIinE5J9QY Part 2 https://youtu.be/zK3Exd6qqc0 Part 3 https://youtu.be/Q9Okh-dxzbY Halladay's grandson tie the Adams in parts 2 and 3 an article by tom deshanes on the adams The Adams: History Revisited by Tom Deschaine | Hatches Fly Tying Magazine (archive.org) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites