Durability of whip finish with head cement vs. 2 whip finishes?

[DrLogik 0]

Three turn whip plus cement for small flies and a 4 turn whip plus cement for larger flies. I've never had a head come un-done...ever. I use nitro-cellulose lacquer for most flies. It sinks in and really holds.

[Guest Tony P]

I don't even use a whip finish or a half hitch anymore. I just put a little CA glue on my thread, make a couple wraps, & trim. Never had one come undone yet.

[Crackaig 0]

While I can't comment on the durability of one over the other in the original question, I do have one thing that no one has pointed out.

 

The single biggest step I have made in the security of whip finishing is to untwist the thread before whip finishing. If you just put on a whip finish immediately you finish the fly there will be a lot of twist in the thread, This twist makes the thread very round and hard. You can only tighten the whip finish down so far onto the thread in this state. Then when you cut the thread the end can start to untwist, making the tight loops loose. If you untwist the thread before forming the whip finish, you can tighten it down much more. This really does make the whip finish far more secure.

 

Even if you are going to add a coat of varnish, you want to get the whip finish as secure as possible before varnishing.

 

Cheers,

C.

[Adam Saarinen 0]

Interesting! Thankyou Crackaig!

[Chris_NH 0]

While I can't comment on the durability of one over the other in the original question, I do have one thing that no one has pointed out.

 

The single biggest step I have made in the security of whip finishing is to untwist the thread before whip finishing. If you just put on a whip finish immediately you finish the fly there will be a lot of twist in the thread, This twist makes the thread very round and hard. You can only tighten the whip finish down so far onto the thread in this state. Then when you cut the thread the end can start to untwist, making the tight loops loose. If you untwist the thread before forming the whip finish, you can tighten it down much more. This really does make the whip finish far more secure.

 

Even if you are going to add a coat of varnish, you want to get the whip finish as secure as possible before varnishing.

 

Cheers,

C.

Good point. You're right, you do get a much better head and knot if you flatten the thread out. Many places in the fly benefit from a strongly corded thread - like getting a good bite on a hard or slick material, while other places benefit from a flatter thread - like tying in delicate materials like peacock herl or building a thread body, or even past the flat point in the other direction getting the thread to jump to the rear to more easily tie something short in. I spin my bobbin quite a lot, in both directions, while I'm tying... makes for a better, easier overall tie I think.

 

And I notice I get the dreaded thread break as I'm tightening down a finish knot with the 8/0 and smaller threads much less frequently when I don't allow the thread to stay tightly corded. Often I use a whip finish to build up a hotspot collar behind a bead with a bright thread on nymphs, and even when you start with a flat thread just the act of 3 or 4 five or six turn whip finishes gets the thread overly corded up to the point where you're better off giving the bobbin a good spin backwards before that last one.

[JSzymczyk 0]

A second question - I also find myself, on flies with hackles protruding out the front of the fly (a pain getting a whip finish tool in there), doing a half hitch followed by a double half hitch (2 turns around the half hitch tool), followed by a triple half hitch if the head isn't getting too bulky, snugging it up and calling it good. Anyone know the durability of this method vs. a traditional 5 turn whip finish?

 

 

chris, a half hitch is a one-turn whip finish.... taking three turns around your half hitch tool then pulling tight is exactly the same knot as a three turn whip finish.

 

There are different methods required for different styles of flies. For small "trout flies" with only one or two strands of material being secured by the head, cement is probably not needed at all. For large bucktails with a relatively large head diameter due to binding down a lot of material at the head, cement is needed if you want the fly to last very long.

 

Nobody on here can say how durable YOUR flies are, and how comparable your different methods are. Tie some samples using your various methods and then try to rip them apart.

[skeet3t 0]

I tie with a Materelli tool- two wraps and head cement. Wouldn't think of not using head cement. I don't tie commercially so time is not a factor- that few seconds it takes to apply cement is a moot point.

[JustSomeGuy83 0]

Newbie question here but, what is CA?

[Idaho RC 0]

CA is an abbreviation for cyanoacrylate glue. It is super glue.

[Chris_NH 0]

chris, a half hitch is a one-turn whip finish.... taking three turns around your half hitch tool then pulling tight is exactly the same knot as a three turn whip finish.

 

 

 

I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this... Gotta mull it over for a bit. Interesting.

[Chris_NH 0]

So that makes me wonder if 2 three turn whip finishes is as durable, or more durable than 1 six turn whip finish...

 

My thinking on the 2 three turn whips is that if the outer whip ever failed then the fly would still be held together, but if the 1 six turn failed then the fly is on the way to falling apart.

 

My goofball mind will dwell on this until I understand the construction of the actual knots better... Time to see what google has to offer on this...

[flytire 0]

whip finish vs half hitch knot

 

see post #18 for photos of each knot

 

http://www.flytyingforum.com/index.php?showtopic=32110&page=2

[Crackaig 0]

Remember though there is super glue and super glue Some is next to useless. For those in the UK take a look at the Toolstation's range.

 

Chris,

Thread control is an important skill. It has been said elsewhere that you can tell how good a tier is by how much they spin the bobbin. Of course there are exceptions to this, mostly the very large flies. It is most certainly true for anyone who is tying trout sized flies. This a part of the reason I always consider how well a bobbin will spin. Some spin very badly. Which I find quite amusing when people tell me it doesn't matter how well a bobbin spins.

 

Cheers,

C.

[Poopdeck 0]

 

chris, a half hitch is a one-turn whip finish.... taking three turns around your half hitch tool then pulling tight is exactly the same knot as a three turn whip finish.

 

I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this... Gotta mull it over for a bit. Interesting.

Same here. I don't think that is correct. I think a whip finish is just a fancy FF Latin term for a snell knot. I mean lets be real nothing in bait fishing can ever translate into FF. it's definitely not a half hitch, I don't think? I mentioned it only because if your going to ponder it maybe you could also determine if a whip is actually a snell.

[Will K 0]

Depends on the fly, but most of the time, I do 1-2 whip finishes of 3-6 turns (guessing... I do more on big flies, fewer on little flies, or those I know I'm about to coat with UV acrylic) and head cement. If the fly is real small, Ill put head cement OR super glue right onto the thread as it hangs, prior to whipping, then I just whip and cut.

 

Not sure I've noticed much of a difference in durability... but the "glue on the thread then whip" method results in never having to poke out an eye that's full of glue